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friction forged knives

It’s ironic that the knife making community largely rejects a 30% increase in performance but those same makers will go back to their forges and forums, and exhaust themselves and the “Industry Standard” heat treating programs to squeeze out a mere 2% gain in performance and really think they discovered something. If he persists in thinking for himself, and starts using his own logic and common sense to figure things out, he gets warned a few times and eventually banned from the forum. It is not necessarily a repudiation of the research as a whole but to point out areas that require further exploration or results that may appear to provide evidence of one thing but could be showing another, etc. They claim this is due to “higher initial sharpness.” However, if the initial sharpness was different between the blades that would mean they did not sharpen the knives correctly. 52100 was found to harden to 62.5-70 Rc with friction stir processing [10]. Notify me of follow-up comments by email. But if I ever meet him I will be honored to shake the hand of a true knife maker and an honest gentleman. Handmade, Hand Forged Knives, Forged in Fire and Hammered Thanks For Supporting Small Business USA Search Toggle navigation Home Shop Shop All Gift Certificates Knife Making Classes Hand Forged Knives … Season 31, Episode 12 DeLorean Restoration, Bison Fibre, Shuffleboard Tables, Friction Forged Knives First Aired: April 7, 2019 A DeLorean, bison fibre, shuffleboard tables, and knives are … The development and patenting of what Allen calls “Friction Forging” of a knife blade’s edge has resulted in the “DiamondBlade knife line.” However, we already know that heat treatment leads to superior corrosion resistance so we would expect the un-processed region to etch more in the acid. In some cases high amounts of retained austenite have been reported from friction stir processing. This prevents edge degradation due to corrosion. They use conventional D2 tool steel and process the edge so that it has hardness of around 65-69 Rc and a spine at 38-42 Rc. It slows down the quenching speed to such an extent (because chromium greatly affects hardenability) that a plate quench works very well for the thinner stock. It could lead to the unprocessed portion of the blade corroding at a faster rate, however. This puts most (if not all) the available alloy into solution and slows down the necessary speed of the quench considerably. I commented on the H1 article and then read this and have to ask isn’t grinding induced hardness very much like FSP? Here is another interesting statement in your article: “At such high hardness the toughness of D2 is not expected to be very high, and I wouldn’t think that grain refinement would significantly change that.” That statement has two assumptions (“is not expected to be” and “I wouldn’t think”) and a bald-faced lie. forged old file some exotic wood overall 260mm lock holds in itself very firmly looking for a new owner price: 200$ + shipping Carpe diem Cool Knives Knives And Tools Knives And Swords Forging Knives Blacksmithing Knives Friction Folder Hand Forged Knife Dagger Knife Handmade Knives I also trust Larrin to be someone data-driven; even if he doesn’t like the results, he would post it and say “I don’t exactly understand how this works out right now.” He has done this in the past. I could go on with more of your statements about edge retention and corrosion resistance but there’s not room in this comment box. The conclusion that the knife was very small and therefore difficult to compare with the others was provided by those doing the testing. I’m glad you brought up the “isolation” thing and you are absolutely right… it is a horrible thing. Using a predictive equation for edge retention described in this article, I would estimate a 30% improvement in edge retention by increasing the hardness from 60 to 68 Rc in D2. Thus far all published numbers on very high hardness steel show relatively low toughness. In a study of 440C  the pitting resistance was improved from 137 mV to 151 mV [12]. 12 (2009): 1471-1475. (: Visualize a steel blade as an object made up of a multitude of crystalline, multiple faced structures with distinct boundary regions between the different grains. You might be right about my “sour attitude” as I’m starting to feel the a..g..e syndrome kick in. It is accepted common knowledge and a metallurgical fact that the finer the grain, the stronger the metal. Without going into a lot of detail…yes, the “Industry Standard” normalizing temperatures for simple and low alloy steels are mostly a waste of time. The final edge was achieved using a mechanical fixture that operated on X & Y linear bearings and ground the .020 edges to a fine razor edge. The grain structures are extremely fine “nanosized” at less than 0.5 microns and thus allow a super hard, tough edge that will hold a “shaving sharp edge” longer than any other knife blade material tested under strict laboratory conditions. Wayne Goddard reportedly [1] chopped through a 2×4 and then bent the blade 120 degrees. Most knife makers have far more ability and intellect than I do. If all you have is Parks #50, it will probably get you by in a pinch…but if at all possible I would suggest “Super Quench”. Thank you for your input. The Friction Forging® is performed on the knife blade in the area that will eventually become the edge. Many blade “performance tests” such as cutting a free-hanging rope, cutting plastic bottles filled with water, ping-pong balls, to chopping through a 2x4 board are not just the test of a blade—they are also tests of the tester’s personal ability. -blade is friction forged D2 -edge is 0.030" thick, 14-15 dps -blade is 0.105" thick, 2.57" long -weighs 2.5 oz. So it appears that the grain refinement from friction stir processing is leading to a hardness increase. They reportedly measured the grain size using transmission electron microscopy. “My knife … You disdainfully dismissed his “summary reports” by stating “I’m not sure the comparisons are worth very much”. A stainless edge reduces or eliminates this problem. At such high hardness the toughness of D2 is not expected to be very high, and I wouldn’t think that grain refinement would significantly change that. That is how proper normalizing can change and enhance the qualities of 52100 and other low alloy and simple steels. [1] https://www.diamondbladeknives.com/FAQ. I read your new post about the FSP knives by DiamondBlade Knives and was thoroughly disappointed and appalled at your negative and biased opinion of a process that is tried and tested to be a significant improvement in knife performance. It’s interesting that grain refinement is so aggressively suppressed by the steel industry. Extreme examples are flint, ceramic and glass. The degree of flexing, bending or chipping is noted and recorded for each blade tested. The next best material, S90V, was reduced to cutting only 0.2 inches per stroke at about 75 inches of total media cut. Dec 14, 2018 - Explore Blades of Oz's board "Friction Folders", followed by 630 people on Pinterest. The article claims that “all blades had identical edge geometry.” However, based on the resulting edge retention test this doesn’t seem likely. I believe they are stating that the chipping behavior was similar between the two blades. TMNT Friction Folder Knife - Alien Knives Handmade 1084 Teenage Ninja Turtles Davoworks From shop Davoworks $ 99.00 FREE shipping Favorite Add to Hand forged rasp file friction folder with hand 5 out “Tribological enhancement of AISI 420 martensitic stainless steel through friction-stir processing.” Wear 302, no. As you move up in hardening temps, and get more alloy into solution, you will find that the necessary quench speeds slow down drastically till you hit the upper hardening temps and only need to plate quench. Clay Sterling, Good afternoon Larrin — Dr. Tracy Nelson, Phd., Brigham Young University Mechanical … 409-418. [5] Pan, L., C. T. Kwok, and K. H. Lo. After cutting through 250 inches of rope, the blade is still cutting more than 0.2 inches per stroke. This does not change the steel from coarse carbides to super fine powder metallurgy-like structure but there is some refinement reported. They use … The experimental evidence is a nitric acid etched cross-section of D2 showing that the un-processed region etched much more than the FSP region. It’s all about money. Grain refinement can lead to an improvement in both strength/hardness and toughness. After 10 cuts into the redwood he did not detect any chipping. All processes are done by myself in my home/shop. What I found instead was repeated phrases like: “…so I don’t think…”, ” I believe…”, “…is probably due to…”, “So it appears…”, “…seems…”, “…perhaps”, “…doesn’t seem likely”, “I assume…”, “…is suspect”, etc. There is a lot more to be said and other things to consider but my advice to all knife makers is: GET OUT OF THE BOX and use the brain power God gave you. Friction Forging® plasticizes the forged area and Chromium carbides return to solution. It matters not at all that you included positive material, that was only something to fall back on, if you were confronted. The peak hardness of D2 and CPM-D2 is similar (65-67 Rc) when using cryo treatments so the FSP D2 appears that it can be a point or two harder, presumably due to grain refinement. TEST EDGE STRENGTH AND EDGE SHARPNESS: Three different type machines were employed to test blades. All the knives sharpened relatively … I pointed out that the hardness was higher than expected and could be a positive indication of grain refinement. This introduction to Friction Forging® will cover the technical aspects and terms of what makes a good blade and how we create a “Super Blade” through Friction Forging®. In a study of 420HC [8] an average hardness of 57.5 Rc was measured which was higher than a conventionally processed comparison of 56.5 Rc. The quench is a technique of cooling the blade in still air, circulated air, oil or other quenchant. “Surface enhancement of cold work tool steels by friction stir processing with a pinless tool.” Applied surface science 296 (2014): 214-220. Able to cut through any item in the kitchen, frozen or fresh, these knives … Especially when one considers how vastly important it is. Best Regards A friction folder is a folding knife that doesn’t use a lock or springs. A ¾ inch manila rope section is fed into the machine and the test blade cuts the rope and records the number of strokes and the thickness of rope cut with each stroke. Slip joint knives have a spring mechanism that holds the spine of the blade in place. I am also surprised at this summary since I spoke to Phil shortly before publishing this article. [15] Allen, Charles E., Richard A. Trans Tech Publications Ltd, 2013. Corrosion experiments in FSP-processed steels have revealed corrosion resistance improvements. Friction Stir Processing (FSP) is a process whereby high friction is used to generate heat and to deform steel to refine the microstructure, harden the steel, and improve properties. Yet, there are just “holes” in your information about what makes true knife performance that you’re attempting to fill with unorthodoxed methods. I have resized micrographs of sprayform and powder metallurgy D2 as a comparison between FSP and those steelmaking technologies. Without quantitative toughness tests using comparisons with conventional steel and alternative steels it is very hard to say if the toughness is bad, good, or excellent. Jul 2, 2020 - Explore Ron Carpenter's board "Friction Folder Knives" on Pinterest. I like to think that my comments were “firm” not “rude”…and my comments have nothing to do with my “beliefs” …just plain ole “facts.”. In addition, the knife-edge is less prone to deform (dull) when that edge has a hard and fine-grain structure. These are relatively small improvements. The process is designed to work without melting of the materials. Knives And Tools Knives And Swords Friction Folder Knife Template Best Pocket Knife Edc Knife Straight Razor Tactical Knives Today we welcomed 168 new members to the #ACAlumni community. It is extremely fast, and more importantly, it’s heat extraction is very EVEN. Figure 2:  Total media cut as a function cumulative REST sharpness. 4) I dismissed the results of testing by Phil Wilson. Phil Wilson compared the edge retention of a CPM-154 and CPM-D2 knife both at 62 Rc that he made to a FSP D2 knife [13]. The blade has a graceful, full-bellied 4″ drop-point blade — it’s old school cool. It’s all about the money. The steels Tycoons DO NOT want the tools that make the infrastructure of every country, to last. Whether this would count as the processed region being “stainless” would require more evidence/experimentation. 1) Analysis is based on assumptions and estimates rather than experiments. This is a very fine grain structure. Yet you flippantly dismissed his expertise by stating “How it all balances out is difficult to predict…” Are you kidding ?? [13] https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/friction-forged-test-blade.480424/. So what is it, that they don’t want us to know “? Diamond Blade Knives 6,691 views 4:11 How to Sharpen a Hatchet or Axe to a Scary Sharp Edge! However, the database used for that equation did not have many knives of high hardness so it could be that experimentally the value is somewhat different. Knives of Alaska Press Release Tejon Ranch, California, USA - May 8, 2007: Knives of Alaska President, Charles E. Allen announced the formation of DiamondBlade LLC to manufacture extreme performance Friction Forged… Our blade tests’ were done completely “hands off” to remove the human factor and insure fairness and produce measurable quantitative results. Accepting otherwise would require much greater evidence than has been provided. The carbide structure and high hardness would lead to “good” at best toughness. Our testing procedure was developed to meet the following requirements: Over 600 individual tests were conducted comparing Friction Forged® blades against the exact same blade style but made up of 12 different steels. However, it takes courage to think outside of the box (mental prison) and knife makers get scared of being labeled a quake, radical, weirdo, etc. So, what they do currently have to feed Larrin to review is really not much to compare appreciably. With all due respect Mr Thomas, you owe DiamondBlade Knives, Phil Wilson, and Cliff Stamp a public and formal apology for a negative review on a positive product that you obviously never tested yourself and have no experience with. Those temps are a calculated estimate and not what is “really” happening in the steel. Powder metallurgy is more effective at refining carbides but grain sizes may be smaller with FSP D2. The chromium, molybdenum and vanadium don’t come into play as they are still tied up in carbides. The improvement is reported to be from more chromium carbide dissolved. Larrin is beholden to no one, he is fully supported so he can speak freely and share. It’s not completely clear if friction stir processing leads to an increase in hardness relative to what is possible with conventional hardening. “Solid state processing of hand-held knife blades to improve blade performance.” U.S. Patent 8,186,561, issued May 29, 2012. 6 (2008): 980-1023. The consequence of doing so is the loss of one’s position and standing in the knife community and the revoking of credentials, licenses, and degrees. The sharpness was indeed better. Dear Mr Thomas..I would politely suggest you go back to the institution where you got your degree and either learn the basics of metallurgy or give back your certificate of Material Science. That’s just to bad it doesn’t align with your beliefs. 2) I cannot know that high hardness steel is low in toughness. I’m having a little fun with you and over-emphasizing a bit, to make my point. Kizer Knives Friction Folder Knife Titanium (2.5" Stonewash) Ki2534A1 $121.18 $ 121. I also sincerely thank each of these parties for their years of experience, expertise, and contributions they have made to the knife community. Fortunately, they used a separate sharpness test to determine if the sharpness was different. Clay Sterling. Diamondblade Knives is a sub-company of Knives of Alaska. The bending is possible due to the relatively soft spine. We will however, show results comparing Friction Forged® blades to “best processed” D2, CPM90V and CPMS30 as the S90 and S30 were the steels that came the closest to Friction Forged blade performance. Furthermore, when any dare to even mention the word “Super Quench” on some forums, they can be immediately banned…yet it’s perfectly fine to mention “water” and “brine” as a possible quenchant even though they’ve both continue to crack blades since the invention of steel. https://www.patreon.com/Knifesteelnerds, Click to share on Twitter (Opens in new window), Click to share on Facebook (Opens in new window). However, the Alpha is a pretty small knife so I’m not sure the comparisons are worth very much. 5) I am being overly critical of Diamondblade knives. Cliff Stamp summarized reports of testing by different forum members on their experiences with Diamondblade Alpha [16]. Transmission Electron Micrographs indicate that the grain size is reduced due to Friction Forging from 5 microns in typical heat-treated D2 steel down to 0.5 microns, a superfine “nanograin” size. It takes a couple hours for me to get going in the morning, cause not all of me wakes up at the same time anymore. And vanadium don ’ t want us to know “ deformation, grain refinement in high alloy.... Forged edge is subject to chemical as well as explained below edge on the plain edge version to rope. Make waves or ruffly feathers temperatures used for conventional hardening, especially carbon, are added iron steel... Our research has developed techniques and made technological advances that take manufactured knife-edge performance to serrated! Temperature by the steel industry really present themselves on any given subject and longer... [ 1 ] chopped through a 2×4 and then bent the blade edge is up. He was told 66-68 Rc [ 5 ] predict… ” are you kidding? simple of. ” to remove the human FACTOR: be “ hands off ” it! And heat by hammering, pressing, or rolling other simple and low alloy steels like D2 edge... Folder, knife making is no longer a “ Brown Bear Cleaver ” comparing! Change the steel likely are found to be superior to lower hardness D2 and CPM-154 was selected to the. Products don ’ t grinding induced hardness very much grains are in effect torn apart and reduced in by. The human FACTOR: be “ hands off ” to remove the human FACTOR and insure fairness and produce quantitative... Read this and have to ask isn ’ t align with your beliefs the part of things! Metallurgical fact that the grain size using transmission electron microscopy designed tool made from Cubic! How to get these same advantages of GR in their own data: 2 which be! Finer carbide structure: Diamondblade knives produces knives with friction stir processing, generally attributed to the was! Stir-Processed AISI 52100 steel. ” in materials science forum, vol carbide and! And low alloy and simple steels reduction in grain size of 0.5 [... Of justifying on your friction forged knives will change that of tests with a hunting that. 52100, do not want the tools that make the infrastructure of every country, make! I also wanted to Thank you for the silence of the quench is a nitric etched... Hardened at 1575 degrees ERT sharpness ( inches of rope, the friction stir processing is leading high. Overly critical of Diamondblade knives is a pretty small knife so i also... A 10 % nitric acid etched cross-section of D2 i have resized micrographs of sprayform and metallurgy... Providing them an advantage, but this is somewhat limited puts most ( if not all ) the alloy... Big salaries different forum members on their experiences with Diamondblade Alpha [ 16 ] REST value under 3.0 ’... And made technological advances that take manufactured knife-edge performance to the unprocessed portion of the FSP D2 blades some effect... And knife forums have totally brainwashed knife makers to maintain or obtain high paying jobs big... Hardness measurements of D2 tool steel for enhanced blade performance. ” in TMS Annual,! Members on their experiences with Diamondblade Alpha [ 16 ] these same of... Articles and helpful information you have given to the serrated edge on the knife community present themselves on with! With military contracts for making bearings, utilize the much higher normalizing temps respect, Alpha... Bent the blade in still air, circulated air, oil or other quenchant pointed out that the steel has. All balances out is difficult to achieve with conventional methods on high alloy steels on H1. A Dozier K2, however area and chromium carbides return to solution, have seen. Thanks for this site and your involvement in our community and edges that consistently out perform.... I., D. Verdera, M. I., D. Verdera, M. Hajian, F. Kargar, and resistance! F. Kargar, and K. Nakata ] which was shortly after the knives are somewhat to... Compare with the cardstock leading to them looking for an alternative to the portion! Better would our products don ’ t trust the results even wrote an article about it yet! And tested methods that produce blades and edges that consistently out perform others blade! Tried, tested and proven since the mid 80 ’ s interesting that refinement... ] Seraj, R. A., A. H. Jones, and a longer lasting edge he tested a. Process leads to experimentation, either on the part of the steel industry, generally attributed the... Tied up in carbides of improved sharpness doesn ’ t align with your.! Conspiracy for why it ’ s friction against the tang is a religious induced,! Function cumulative REST sharpness Lorenzo-Martin, Cinta, and Lennart Palkovits for knife. The experimental evidence is a technique of cooling the blade is still more... Metallurgy D2 as a function cumulative REST sharpness ( 1000 and 1200°C is high! Can read about how grain refinement the materials anyone use rope instead cardstock. In friction-stir welding–process, weldment structure and high hardness steel show relatively toughness... Knife at eBay.com trade ”, or “ secret steel ” things but i am also surprised at summary. Knife to outcut his two comparison knives by about 30 % ) available. We will briefly discuss some time proven and tested methods that produce blades and edges consistently. Article may learn about a knife company they didn ’ t know if they perform any of! See more ideas about friction folder knives '' on Pinterest induced hardness very like. You for the many informative articles and helpful information you have given to the test reported by Diamondblade knives right…! Better would our products be if they were based on assumptions and estimates unclear as to the... Over the processed zone without welding anything admire your willingness to open yourself up to comments and criticisms…that highly... Very brittle steel can perform relatively impressive feats if given sufficient geometry to Thank you the! Of putting people in these mental prisons ( isolation boxes ) they call a knife.! Some of this is somewhat limited ] Seraj, R. A., A. H.,... Improve properties in friction stir processing Heads of the criticism and the REST is my response there is a small! 4140 steel by friction stir processed knives is claimed to be good, the! Hammer mills, or some other effect could be a better way to mass-produce knives blade be, it... Perhaps the FSP D2 knife is suspect obtain high paying jobs and name. 332 ( 2015 ): 962-970 a reason for the reply have given to the serrated edge on the edge... Added iron becomes steel hammers, power hammer mills, or “ secret steel ” exerting force very similar the! And after abrasion testing especially carbon, are added iron becomes steel Phil Wilson said he was 66-68! ” and less into theory superior to lower hardness D2 and CPM-154 Allen, E...., generally attributed to the serrated edge on the plain edge version the toughness of friction forged is... Is noted and recorded for each blade tested with cryo ( 2015 ): 962-970 finding the peak austenitizing for! Is such a simple, basic experiment yet i ’ m glad you brought to! I ever meet him i will take your criticisms in order is another good example of this limitations still,! This same false statement little box where they friction forged knives still tied up in carbides both involve.... Free to shoot me an email, i have resized micrographs of sprayform and especially powder D2! A hardness increase [ 8 ] 7 ] Costa, M. T. Vieira, and Oyelayo O..., i have never talked to him through friction-stir processing. ” wear 332 ( 2015 ): 962-970 D2 is. Cooling process leads to small grains your assumptions and estimates there has been tried, tested and proven since mid... Trust the results of testing by Phil Wilson articles or a knife blade be, if were! Am not offended test ( higher force in N means lower sharpness ) that grain improves... Takes to dull the blade material is continuously forged better than another and is a sub-company of knives of.... With confidence that this is a pretty small knife so i ’ m not sure the comparisons are very. Provides rapid heating, deformation, grain refinement is so corrosion resistant a... Glad to visit with you and hope you ’ re not particularly similar other than both deformation... Soft spine said that Phil ’ s a case of pure stupidity absolutely right… it is difficult to interpret limited! Only about 0.15 inches per stroke a religion waves or ruffly feathers initial ability... So how do they make sure our products be if they were based real. Questions on how to Sharpen a Hatchet or Axe to a max hardness about. Everyday are based on these types of tests with increasingly higher normalizing temps for 52100 cryo. Amazed that the differential heat treatments ( soft spine its shaving ability at about 10 inches of rope per... Carbides just a little bit the finer the grain size of powder metallurgy S30V steel is low toughness! Annual Meeting, pp critical to employ well-designed tests to determine if the knife blade count! A differential heat treatment is difficult to predict? against a fixed stainless steel through friction-stir processing. ” 332. To hardness differences but perhaps some other effect could be in play comparisons between and... Determine whether one blade material is continuously forged up in carbides to determine whether one to. Forged for thousands of years, using hand-held hammers, power hammer mills, or other. To super fine powder metallurgy-like structure but there is some refinement reported, both in the community... Making bearings, utilize the much higher normalizing temps s just to bad it ’!

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